[INKS]: "It's a Big, Huge Mindfuck" - Charlie Cox and Vincent D'Onofrio on Daredevil: Born Again
Meltdown Press is now home to Inks and Ideas, a multimedia platform where your favorite creatives will tell their stories
This is something completely different than anything I’ve done with this newsletter before. As some of you may know, I used to write for ComicBook.com full-time. In that previous life, I wrote about film, television, and comics for a living.
Although that’s changed a bit in the past year, many of the relationships I managed to cultivate through CB have continued to flourish. That includes an excellent working relationship with the stars of Daredevil: Charlie Cox and Vincent D’Onofrio.
Now that the first season of Daredevil: Born Again is just days away from release, I was fortunate enough that the two requested to speak with me, despite the fact I’m technically The Man With No Press Outlet.
Technically.
The plan was to use our chat to launch something I’ve always wanted to do, a creator-focused podcast in which I interviewed actors, filmmakers, and comic creators on their storytelling processes.
Quick ad break. My latest comic, Nock #2, is now funding on Kickstarter. Check it out if you’re looking for a new indie comic to support!
Only we ran into some technical issues during our Zoom call Monday morning and no recording was to be had. Although I won’t be able to use this particular chat to launch Inks and Ideas visually as planned,we managed to save the transcript so I could use this as an opportunity to inform you all why you’ll be seeing some e-mails with the Inks and Ideas branding. Some things not particularly linked to my own personal comics career will be sent out under the Inks and Ideas section, which is still undoubtedly a part of my overall vision for Meltdown Press.
But enough of that, here’s my latest interview with Cox and D’Onofrio ahead of Born Again’s release on March 4.
Adam Barnhardt: You guys start back, what, on Friday?
Charlie Cox: Yeah, it’s a pretty intense schedule. I’ve never actually been prepping a show and promoting a show at the exact same time.
Vincent D’Onofrio: Yeah, Charlie starts on Friday.
AB: How long will season two be filming?
VD: Summer-ish, fall-ish
CC: Yeah, I think into July.
VD: Yeah.
AB: Gotcha. Okay. Jeez. Maybe you can get a vacation after.
CC: Well, I’ve had a break, I mean Vincent’s been crazy but I’ve had a bit of a break in the months before Christmas.
VD: Nice, I’ve had a bit of a break. I’ve been traveling but yeah, I’ve been doing these other jobs. Actually, my goal this year is to make as much money as I can so I might jump into another series right after this one. We’ll see how I feel.
AB: Non-Marvel?
VD: Not a Marvel series, no. Something else.
AB: Well, let’s talk Born Again, that’s why we’re here right? The diner scene. I watched the first two episodes and the diner scene is one of the best things I’ve ever watched in my life. There’s a moment in there you guys are talking and Wilson laughs. But at that moment I’m like, “Man, that almost feels like Vincent peeking through there a bit.” I understand you guys are two professional actors just doing your job, but at the same time it feels like it was almost hard to contain this unbridled sense of joy that you guys are scene partners once again.
VD: That’s part of it, Adam. But really I think it’s just the thrill of being able to make a joke with Charlie as Daredevil.
To talk about the Echo story with a sense of humor. We like the idea of that and we pushed for that, Charlie and I, and then when we were doing it I understood exactly why we pushed for it because I actually found it really kind of funny. For these two characters to be joking together.
It’s very genuine for sure because I, you know, that was the moment that Charlie and I knew would be enjoyable not only for us but for the fans too, just to have a little levity there.
CC: And it’s also you know, it’s also I think very truthful that if you watch sports teams, let’s take the athletes, you know, sometimes in the heat of battle with intense rivalry and often sincere kind of hatred for your rival teams it’s so intense. It’s funny and that was something that we talked about, if you’re going to be bold and we’re going to have a scene with DD and Fisk early on.
VD: Yeah.
CC: Where they’re going to sit up to each other in a diner like, “Let’s really mine it for as much nuance and truth as there could possibly be.” And I think where the scene goes is more impactful because of how it starts.
AB: Most would say Born Again is probably Daredevil’s definitive comics run, right? Everyone goes back to it. It was partially adapted for season three it’s being adapted for Born Again Season One and Two. Charlie, you once told me you’ve essentially read Daredevil’s entire comics library - where do you want to see the character go next?
CC: Oh God, the truth is it’s not a very interesting answer. The honest truth is the ideas that come from the minds that make this show are so much better than mine. I want them to do it, I but want them to tell me. Vincent and I have read six episodes of this new season that we’re about to start shooting and it think it’s some of the best stuff I’ve ever read for this character it’s so exciting.
And I think that’s come from the minds of Kevin [Feige], Brad [Winderbaum], Louis [D’Esposito] and Dario [Scardapane], our showrunner. Then all the writers in the team you know and of course Sana Amanat, who’s our esteemed producer from Marvel.
There are so many great stories to tell and obviously you know you don’t want to just adapt something.
I mean this is not the story of Born Again. We are Born Again in title only because it’s just a great in-joke homage to the fact that we are back as a show and it also happens to be one of the most iconic runs but. We always want to draw from the comics but also not tell those exact stories, otherwise the fans will know exactly what’s going to happen.
AB: Kingpin is probably one of the most complex villains in the Marvel stable. Vincent, what aspect of his personality did you most like approaching this time around as compared to the first three seasons?
VD: The idea of him being in such a difficult position. I’m sure I’ve mentioned this to you before, but I consider him like a…when he has to deal with domestic things outside of the shadows, I feel like he’s like a vampire trying to live in the daylight. It’s almost impressive for him to do, if not impossible.
So it’s a constant struggle for him to be on this campaign. For him to then, you know, to put life in the light so to speak, because deep down the plan is to you know stretch his reach for control even more. And I mean that’s the overall plan. Whether that’s going to work out for him or not, that’s a different story.
AB: Muse happens to be one of my favorite, not only Daredevil villains, but villains in all of comics. Was he always a part of the series or was that part of it added after the overhaul?
CC: No, that was part of the original idea. We shot a lot of that stuff before the break, the pause. And yeah, it's a really cool storyline.
AB: Would it be proper to say he's the primary antagonist or will that always be Kingpin even though he's “breaking good” for now? Kind of, sort of.
VD: I think Charlie would agree that he is a challenge for Daredevil. And he is annoying, Muse we're talking about. He is annoying beause he's trying to accomplish something. Muse is, you know, stirring things up. so Kingpin has to try and use Muse in his favor somehow. But I think in the end, the overall story, Adam, is as it moves forward in episodes, Fisk upstages any other villain in the show, so to speak.
AB: The beginning of the series is going to be probably one of the most talked about events in the history of the MCU for various reasons we won't quite get into at the moment. One thing I think we're safe discussing, you know, is that there wouldn't be Daredevil without a hallway fight. Is what we see at the top of the show the One-Take moment of the season?
CC: In episode one, yeah. That being said, there's some tremendous action that's forthcoming, but that is our one take. That feat in episode one is the creation of Phil Silvera, our stunt coordinator, and is big one-take which was a challenging one.
We've done some pretty serious ones and that was very challenging for new and different reasons, primarily for me because the knives or the instruments that he is throwing at me are CGI, they're added in. So it's, when I'm fighting, I'm out, I'm almost having to learn both sides. Me and my stunt double, Nico, are having to learn both sides of the fight because I have to throw my punches and then I have to remember where and how I take hits from imaginary knives.
So it's a big, huge mindfuck.
AB: Is it a traditional one-take?
CC: No, no, so it's not a true “Oner.” It's like the “Oner” in season two in the corridor with Frank. It plays as a “Oner,” but it's morphed.
VD: The shots are morphed together. Charlie, I was gonna say that you know this is why Adam's the best, because you see how he skipped over the big event that happens in the show?
CC: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
AB: I don't wanna get you guys in trouble. That's like asking, you know, if you guys are in Spider-Man 4. I'm not gonna do it.
VD: Well, for you, we're not. You can ask that because we're not in Spider-Man 4, or at least nobody has told me that we are. And, but, you know, I'm just saying that to Charlie, Adam only because we've had a lot of, we've done a lot of interviews and most of them hadn't really thought that through. But I'm just giving you some praise because that's why I think you're awesome.
CC: Yeah. You know, what I can say is that it is... What I can say is that it is, like you say, it's monumental. And Matt Murdock will never be the same again. Ever. And it's a tragedy on so many levels. Personally, professionally...but it is a catalyst for some really cool stuff.
AB: Marvel just released a reprint of Born Again, which features a foreword if I'm not mistaken by one Charlie Cox. There's been some precedence, you know, where Iman Villani who appears as Ms. Marvel just wrote a Ms. Marvel comic series for Marvel. Is there ever going to be the opportunity where Charlie Cox jumps from the foreword into the interiors and writes his own Daredevil comics?
CC: God, I don't think so, no. I would not. I would not presume to know how to do that. I'm sure you both have, but if you've ever bought a comic, and actually in the re-release Born Again, the softback, when you get to the end, they often include the script, the original script from the author, so in this case, Frank Miller.
If you ever read any of them, it's overwhelming how impressive and how much detail is in there. That world and you don't know and you just read a comic, you could potentially just think it's like just someone's writing words and then the artist is inventing the thing. It's a really impressive, very humbling art form.
AB: Between the end of Echo and especially episode two of Born Again, Wilson is essentially the most vulnerable we've ever seen him. Now we don't want to get into too many spoilers, but do you feel for the most part he, I guess quote unquote, holds it together throughout Born Again season one or should we be expecting some sort of seismic break?
VD: He's trying to hold it together, but there is a break. Seismic, that will be up to the audience to decide. But it's not good. None of it's good. It's not, he's trying his hardest, hardest, but none of it's good.
AB: Charlie, by the time season two wraps and airs, you will have appeared as Matt Murdock in over 50 episodes of television.
CC: [laughs] Is that right?
AB: And, you know, I brought up the fact you've read most Daredevil comics. think to say you probably know the character better than anyone else on the face of the planet.
CC: I'm not sure that's true. I've been immersed in this character for many, for a number of years now. But the stuff that I focus on and the stuff that I retain about him is quite...specific as it pertains to me and my interpretation of it. So look, I'm not underplaying it. I don't want to underplay it, but I wouldn't, I know, I probably know my version of Daredevil better than anyone, but, you know, I wouldn't want to be put in this position where I was quizzed by some hardcore Daredevil nerds, because I'm not sure I would, I I would fare too well in a Q&A, not scenario.
AB: Fair enough. So your version of the character, do you feel your version of the character is best suited in this New York bubble
CC: Look, it's so fun to be given the opportunity to kind of...pop up here and there. It was a really good experiment being in particularly She-Hulk because obviously that was tonally such a huge departure from stuff we've done. And there is precedent within the comics for a character that has more levity and more is slightly lighter in tone, so it was certainly fun to do.
But my favorite runs of Daredevil are the ones where it is geared towards a more mature audience. It is more shocking and sinister and emotional. And I think that's where our show excels, it's when we are deep in those places.
AB: Back in the day, MCU actors were given 10 picture contracts. Is that the case with most of you guys or have they switched to like a project-by-project basis these days?
VD: It kind of keeps on getting altered but we have similar things. Not as expansive as what you just said but the coolest thing about Marvel I like is that they do sort of have a plan all set in stone. They're very creative guys and girls over there. The women and men who work for Marvel are all creative, all the ones that I've met and they change their minds about things.
It opens their mind up to other things that gives them ideas and then they'll change what their plans because they like to go for the most creative things. This is the way they've been with Charlie and I the whole time. So yeah, we had to sign some kind of extensive deals to a point, but nothing crazy and so far it's all changed constantly. It's not that kind of rigid, you know?
AB: To end, I do have a couple of friends behind the Save Daredevil movement and they sent me over a message to you to read to you guys:
“We feel like we should be hiring billboards and sky riders to share how excited we are for this moment so many years in the making and one that we always believed in our hearts could happen. It's extremely gratifying to finally be so close to experiencing Daredevil: Born Again and to be able to do it together. We know Daredevil changed all of your lives but it also changed ours too. Supporting this show and all of you was the best choice we've ever made. Thank you for that.”
VD: That's so sweet. These people are so amazing. They've been trying so hard for so long. You should send a message back to them saying that Charlie and I are, if they don't know this already, we are very conscious of their help and their support and their passion. We've been talking about them.
CC: You've been talking about them for the last five days, so hopefully they will see some of that stuff.
There you have it, folks. Our informal launch of Inks and Ideas through this written Special Presentation of sorts while the podcast itself will launch in the next week or two.